Curse

Robster Lobster · Jan 21, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

skill>time spent still does not say the best. As was said before PVP characters pre-made or custom are competitive with skill and intelligence and there is no UAS, and there is a reward for those that DO spend the TIME. It's doesn't make them fantastically better, but, does give them a reward for their TIME SPENT which is righteously fair imho. You want "more" you must put in the time. You get quite enough without having to grind the PVE at all also imho.

PVP characters get superior anything they want, you know how hard it is for a PVE character to get a superior rune of vigor or absorption? Yessire I firmly believe in the reward for working at the PVE game to be somewhat more efficient in the PVP game with my character. I've earned every right to it and PVP players don't do anything, but, slap each other around for easy faction and expect EVERYTHING?

It's not as hard for a PvE character to get Superior Vigor or Absorption as it is for a PvP character to play the PvE game.

Siren · Jan 21, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

And Siren, if you truly believe that the difference doesn't matter, then why are you so opposed to the idea? I personally think that the +5>50 mod that you can get on a wand along with a recharge/ cast time (unavailable for PvP) is handy, 5 extra energy (the max amount available, not 3 energy) can make a difference, that's another spell, or giving you more time against an e-denail mesmer. But if you don't, why don't you want these items in PvP?

Lobster, I'm opposed to the idea because the only reasons being given as to why PvPers should have green item types of weapons and off-hands is that the green items are good enough to make a difference in PvP. And I can say, as a PvEr doing PvP, who has used green items, that the greens are not good enough to make any difference in turning the tide of a battle. Green items are band-aids, as far as I'm concerned, for players who haven't utilized their character's strengths and all 150 of their skills.

If someone thinks a green item is going to imbalance the battlefield (or for that matter, rebalance the battlefield), they should actually try using the green items. Greens are wholly mediocre for supposed "rare" items. You can't even add mods to them. They're simply stuck at average.

And for all the green staff referencing going on, you'd think there would be a clear use for the green staves. But the Monk skill recharges and cast times just don't seem to need it. Funny, that.

gotenks · Jan 21, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

PvP warrior and ranger weapons are in no way inferior to anything found in PvE, except for maybe shields (Victo's Bulwark

). But shields cant be customized anyway, so putting one in storage is always a good option.

When it comes to caster items, customization is not an issue. Collectors/Droknars weaponsmith items cover almost all types(along with the standard PvP ones) and are extremely easy to obtain, the ones that are left have insignificant mods. That includes all the greens too. 20/20 rockmolder was one thing that had a definate advantage, but thats gone too. If you are going to bring HoD swords into the picture, the you should know that they were removed from the game due to imbalance they caused. They are no longer available for an average PvE player, so how can they be added to PvP? What about the damage always no drawbacks weapons? They have an advantage too, no one in their right mind would customize one, but still for arguements sake, they are there right?

I support the notion of seperating PvE from PvP for better evolution of both. But most people think that Guildwars is all about PvE and PvP coexisting together. With that in mind, getting everything just buy doing PvP would be seperating it totally from PvE. Something that goes against the very basic nature of this game. There should always be some rewards, however little they maybe, for people who spent 100's of hours in getting a weapon like HoD sword or a damage always no drawbacks axe/sword/bow. Its not a matter of PvP/PvE, its about the effort and getting rewards for it. If someone puts that much effort in PvP, he/she stands a chance to win 100k, right? And dont give me that skill > time spent arguement. Skill is a very subjective term and PvP is not the only place where it is used. PvP also gives a very visible reward which directly correlates to time spent and thats indivisual rank or guild rank. Doesnt mean anything in terms of player skill, or you wont see people in tombs asking for "Non-noob rank 6+ warriors".

Deathqueen · Jan 21, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

It's not as hard for a PvE character to get Superior Vigor or Absorption as it is for a PvP character to play the PvE game.

So you say, tell that to the 100000 people who don't have them yet. And also getting the skills from the PVE game is a lot harder than it is in PVP so that balances out nicely. Game on we keep our PVE stuff and you get your PVP stuff and may the better skilled win. (smile)

Now at the person who said nobody in their right mind would customize a 15% always weapon..why not? If I'm always going to use that weapon and I can tell you now if I ever get one I won't ever sell it, why wouldn't I customize it? That would be gimping myself +20% damage. Money is easy to come by in this game if you actually WORK for it, so give me a +15% always weapon and watch me customize it. (smile)

Robster Lobster · Jan 21, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

So you say, tell that to the 100000 people who don't have them yet. And also getting the skills from the PVE game is a lot harder than it is in PVP so that balances out nicely. Game on we keep our PVE stuff and you get your PVP stuff and may the better skilled win. (smile)

Now at the person who said nobody in their right mind would customize a 15% always weapon..why not? If I'm always going to use that weapon and I can tell you now if I ever get one I won't ever sell it, why wouldn't I customize it? That would be gimping myself +20% damage. Money is easy to come by in this game if you actually WORK for it, so give me a +15% always weapon and watch me customize it. (smile)

I don't think you understand, there may be 100000 people without superior vigor and absorption, but not one PvP player can play the PvE game.

Imagine it this way, after getting a very high amount of faction, PvP players could get better versions of all the PvE skills, and then go into PvE missions and use better skills. Would that be fair? And it would be more fair than PvP, as it would be the monsters getting the disadvantage compared to the players.

gotenks · Jan 22, 2006, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I don't think you understand, there may be 100000 people without superior vigor and absorption, but not one PvP player can play the PvE game.

Imagine it this way, after getting a very high amount of faction, PvP players could get better versions of all the PvE skills, and then go into PvE missions and use better skills. Would that be fair? And it would be more fair than PvP, as it would be the monsters getting the disadvantage compared to the players.

Nothing thats done in PvP ever affects PvE. Except for sigils and gold drops from HoH chests and maybe some experience that your PvE character gains.

Deathqueen · Jan 22, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I have a PVP character that plays the PVE game quite often. Know why? Cause I played up a PVE character for PVP, like Guild Wars intended all along to be the "best" in the PVP arena. You want the best do the test. You want to be just so so, continue to play your pre-mades and custom mades. Anet has balanced it fairly and rewarded those that did in fact play the PVE game to play the PVP game. Else what is the reason for the PVE game in the first place if it's prime directive is PVP? It's not, never was, it's prime directive was both with playing the PVE to PVP the grand scheme of it all. Game on, you're only getting what you earn if you only play pvp. (smile)

NatalieD · Jan 22, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

So, uh, what's the justification for "work in PVE = superiority in PVP"? Seriously, can you give a reason for that other than just saying it's how it should be?

Argen · Jan 22, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

I am a PvE player who spends about 20% of their time in the land of PvP, in particular HoH.

PVE: I have about 800 hours logged on my account. It took me recently about 40-45 hours to advance my most current character to level 20 in PvE. I than decided to earn myself some fame so I decided to look at some builds and talk to some people. I settled on choosing the Orders Necromancer for an IWAY group. Luckily I had most of the skills unlocked by that point, so I went out to purchase the ones I needed and the cap the Elite, Order of the Vampire. This took 2 hours, simply because I was with one PUG group that failed to make it to the boss with OoV. The other skills amounted to 3 platinum... about 30 minutes in the Underworld. Than I decided that the only way for me to be competitive was to gather up the necessary equipment... Got a second set of Droks Armor for my necro with the Blood Facial Scar Pattern and a Superior Rune of Blood. This took one Smite run to the Underworld, total time about 1 hour. Getting the necessary Superior Rune of Vigor took 9 Smite runs about 4.5 hours, damn those ectoless runs. Getting a good Blood Staff and Cesta/Idol focus took almost 130k, roughly equivalent to the PvP set. That took almost 55 hours to come by. This looks to me like 107 hours, I'll call it 110. I spent approximately %13 of my time.

PVP: A PvP player, having about 800 hours (assuming no consecutive victories ever and 20 minutes per match has around 800[hour]*3[3 matches per hour]*260[100 for winning + 20 per combatant] 624,000 Faction points) logged on their account. Logs in, selects the armor they want, adds in the runes that they have already unlocked. Selects the perfect equipment that they want, unlocks 7 skills, I assume they have the res signet. 2,000 for the Elite Skill, 4,000 for the Superior Runes, and 7,000 for the Skills... a total of 13,000 out of their 624,000... or about 5 hours or 1% of their time or 2% of their resources.

Now all this leads me to a couple of questions... first off, does this seem fair... An experienced PvE players needs around 100 hours to get a character to the same level that takes a PvP player 5 hours of their time spent. How is this defeating the "grind" for players to be competitive?

After starting this new character, my necro, I have gone to Hall of Heroes twice, and held it with an IWAY group for 2 matches. Both times I got a Sigil... which translates to around 50k. I believe I sold one for 20 and the other for 30. So approximately 50k in 2 hours, which is seemingly better than the current Ecto farming rate.

Now, I see that some PvP players do not believe it is fair that PvE has more Green items available to it (the new Greens take a bit away from this monopoly). Some of the items are different than PvP items, but even these can be purchased by an effective PvP player. In most cases the PvE players spent time farming these items, or other marketable goods to purchase them. How should it be any different for a PvP player?

To get one of those famous Henge of Denravi swords currently costs about 250k. Or about 40 ecto... assuming you can get 1 ecto per smite run now... that takes around 20 hours of gameplay in the PvE enviroment. In PvP end of things, gain or hold the Hall 10 times for 10 sigils...

ANet has told us time and time again, that they want to focus on skill; sometimes skillful competition requires a bit dedication to attain the tools necessary to become competitive.

Argen · Jan 22, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Oh yes, and since the game is all about skill and not grind... Why don't we start the PvP game with all skills, runes, and weapons upgrades unlocked? Since getting those skills and such takes some amount of grinding.

NatalieD · Jan 24, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argen

Now all this leads me to a couple of questions... first off, does this seem fair... An experienced PvE players needs around 100 hours to get a character to the same level that takes a PvP player 5 hours of their time spent.

You're talking as if it's impossible to have RP and PVP characters on the same account. If you don't want to get all the equipment for your RP character to go into PVP, then you can make a PVP character with the same build. That's what they're for!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argen

Oh yes, and since the game is all about skill and not grind... Why don't we start the PvP game with all skills, runes, and weapons upgrades unlocked? Since getting those skills and such takes some amount of grinding.

Don't ask me. I'd be all in favor of that, but apparently there are good reasons against it. No one's ever told me what those reasons are, but I'm assured they exist.

Argen · Jan 24, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

How dare you accuse me of... oh wait, yeah...

good idea with having the PvP Slot on your account. I just prefer to unlock everything in PvE.

That's my choice! Really, I feel pretty decent about having unlocked most things with PvE and am quite happy with the returns.

However, I will imagine that most PvE are not as... open minded in that regard. I was just illustrating the time spent in comparison.. I enjoy the PvE grind more than I do the PvP grind. I do enjoy PvP matches though. Also the PvE community feels that the PvP community is elitists who want everything given to them now... PvP players feel that the PvE players are skilless enjoy playing with both types of folks.

I was in Tombs one day and a friend of mine arrived in FoW armor on his W/Mo... he joined our group and immediately was heckled about how he was such a noob and bought his gold on eBay, other accused him of being a farmer. I know that he got the stuff during the reset, so neither is true. Didn't make sense for folks in my PuG and other onlookers to attack him. Than they started the attack because he was playing a Paladin... (not the build he was using... we were testing an idea for a KD build). I think he gave up on PvP for another 2 months cause of it.

In PvP defense, I have seen quite a few PvE characters make some mistakes because they were inexperienced...

There needs to be a sharing of ideas and talents between the rift in the game, besides 1-to-1 and intra-guild cooperation.